Monday, October 29, 2007

"If it weren't for your maturity . . ."

"I am a question to the world, not an answer to be heard, or a moment that's held in your arms. And what do you think you'd ever say? I won't listen anyway. You don't know me, and I’ll never be what you want me to be. And what do you think you'd understand? I'm a boy, no, I'm a man. You can take me and throw me away. And how can you learn what's never shown? Yeah, you stand here on your own. They don't know me 'cause I'm not here. And I want a moment to be real, wanna touch things I don't feel, wanna hold on and feel I belong. And how can the world want me to change? They’re the ones that stay the same. They don’t know me, 'Cause I’m not here. (Johnny Rzeznik).
I saw big boobs girl today. Big boobs girl is a girl I dated my freshman year. I know that she has big boobs because my roommate told me that she has big boobs. Knowing that important fact made me sure that she was the one who would fix me. I made out with her in the library. It didn't do anything for me.

It was weird to run into her for the first time since my mission. She was there with her husband. I kinda felt guilty. As if to seal the guilt, my high school girlfriend called me. I wanted to tell her in person about me, but that meant waiting for Christmas. I couldn't wait. I told her. She was way understanding. It helped that I was the third x-boyfriend of hers to come out to her. Poor girl. She had very insightful things to say. She said that a lot of parents have a hard time with their kids coming out because it shatters their dreams/plans, one of which is grandchildren. Another thing she said was that I should never date girls. She said it's not fair to them or to me. And she's had three gay boyfriends now, so I trust her insight. I won't completely rule it out of my future, though.
"And you see the things they never see. All you wanted, I could be. Now you know me, and I'm not afraid, and I wanna tell you who I am. Can you help me be a man? They can't break me as long as I know who I am . . . They can’t tell me who to be, ‘Cause I’m not what they see. And the world is still sleepin’, while I keep on dreamin’ for me. And their words are just whispers and lies that I’ll never believe . . ." (Johnny Rzeznik).


Abelard Enigma said...

I saw big boobs girl today.

There was a girl in my high school whom we called Betty Big Boobs. She didn't wear a bra; so, they bounced when she walked. I never understood the fascination the other boys had with her - ah, the memories.

I was the third x-boyfriend of hers to come out to her

You know what they say: "All of the good guys are either married or gay" (or both). My wife dated a guy who turned out to be gay while I was on my mission. Some women are attracted to personalities and attributes that are more common in gay men than straight men. But, is that our fault?

I should never date girls.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I mean, come on, after dating 3 gay guys, doesn't that tell her something? She either needs to accept the possibility that her future husband will be gay, or change what she is looking for in a man. One could argue that, by dating girls, you are doing them a favor by showing them the type of men they are attracted to (assuming, of course, that you are honest with them regarding your sexual preferences).

But, what do I know? I'm just another queer who is married to a straight girl.

Kengo Biddles said...

I completely disagree with her saying you should never date girls. That's a load of hogwash. If you have the slightest inclination toward getting married in the temple and having children, you have to date girls to get to that point.

If you plan on following the celibate route instead, then, yes, never dating girls is a good way to get there.

My point is, you have to decide your path for yourself with much prayer and thought. It's not something to let someone force upon you, no matter how well intentioned.

forever barred said...

It's not something to let someone force upon you, no matter how well intentioned.

Thanks Kengo. I wish more people understood that.

Brady said...

This is interesting to me, as I've also had several girls say something to the effect of, "I need my husband to be attracted to me" or "Why would you date girls if you're gay?" And in many ways, it does seem counter-productive, at least unfair to the girls. But I also understand well what Abelard and Kengo are saying... you won't get a temple marriage without dating and working towards it.

playasinmar said...

Maybe you should trust the girls and the girl point of view on this.

Abelard Enigma said...

Maybe you should trust the girls and the girl point of view on this.

Pshaw! Girls are weird, what do they know? :)

Seriously, if a marriage relationship is based solely on sex then that marriage is in trouble - regardless of the sexual orientation of the couple.

I do agree that a couple needs to think long and hard before entering into a mixed orientation marriage; but, gay guys can make good husbands and fathers - don't rely on the opinion of some single girl who is having difficulty finding straight guys to date - ask the straight spouses in mixed orientation marriages.

drex said...

The pool of understanding and capable-of-MOM (mixed orientation marriage) is smaller than the sea of girls out there, but it's just another facet of compatibility in the end. Everyone's real-pool is likely smaller than they'd tend to think. And despite the fact that I think it's horribly unfair to the straight participant in a mixed orientation relationship, it's their choice, too. I told Salad repeatedly that I didn't think that it was fair for her, but she just scoffed in my face and essentially told me I was wrong. :P When it's their conscious choice to continue through it, then something's working.

Chris said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chris said...

Yes, by all means, please do. I'd suggest you ask the straight spouses in marriages that ultimately ended as well as those that are still in tact.

I find the disregard for this one woman's point of view rather startling, I have to say. Though when I pause and think about it, I really should not be surprised. When it comes to mixed-orientation marriage in the Mormon world, as with most things in Mormondom, the focus seems to be quite squarely on the man making good on his potential to be a worthy priesthood holder, husband and father. That's all any Mormon woman should need, right?

Abelard is right -- marriage isn't just about sex. But neither is being gay or straight, so I will make a different point than he. Striaght woman married to gay men often find that their different sexual orientations create intimacy problems that have nothing to do with the act of sex. Marriage is about more than sex; so is intimacy and sexuality.

I say listen to your friend -- stop dating women. Or, at a minimum, have the decency to be up front about your homosexuality from day one. (I know I certainly wish I had -- for my sake, and for the sake of my ex-wife.)

Chris said...

I meant to include this quote from abelard at the top of my previous post: ask the straight spouses in mixed orientation marriages

Yes, by all means, please do...

salad said...

Drex and I have been upfront and honest about everything in our relationship and that has made all the difference. Now, that having been said, it DOES NOT WORK FOR EVERYONE. It works for some and doesn't for others, but it's something that both the straight partner and the gay partner have to be willing to work at and be completely dedicated to.

YOU and only you can decide if it's worth it and if it's something you really want. Don't let others dictate what will work for you. You can look to examples and ask questions, but ultimately, it's your decision.

draco said...

"...none of this would have happened. If you weren't so wise beyond your years, I would have been able to control myself..." Such a good song! I hope that's what you were quoting.

Kengo Biddles said...

I think Chris is absolutely right that you need to be honest; as to when, I leave to you to work that out, but I agree it's a must if/when things get serious.

I also agree with talking with those wives in marriages like Abelard's and mine, if they're comfortable, and if Chris's ex-wife is amenable, I'd talk to her too, in your position.

I think that your friend's point of view has been dismissed mostly because it's rather biased given that it's one person's opinion. Hence the further recommendation. I'd also recommend you talk to A Girl Who..., as she's been involved with MoHos on romantic and non-romantic levels, and she can offer another opinion as you come to understanding and decision.

My wife was perfectly happy dating and marrying me, knowing what I deal with. We have a very good marriage. Yes, we have flaws, yes, we have things to deal with, but I'm committed, and I really feel that a MOM is the thing for me.

Chris, on the other hand has come to a good place in his life, and a MOM is not something that works for him, and he's found something that does.

So, yes, be careful. Yes, be up-front. But DON'T go telling every single girl you go on a casual date-dance date with that you're gay. (IMHO). If it feels right, tell her.

To be completely honest, Miki knew about me before we'd even got to be really good friends; puzzled it out because of her amazing gaydar.

Essentially, what I think we're all saying is that this is something very serious, and affects more than just one person's or even two people's lives. So be careful. :)